Split from Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Talk about anything you want here
User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Village Elder
Posts: 2639
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:46 am
Gender: Male
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Split from Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by MusicallyInspired » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am

Yeah, I love NRS's work and he's been an asset to the community. I truly respect his past efforts. but he needs to grow up. He acts like a 2 year old. He first deleted his initial posts and kept his threads, but then when someone else replied to each thread with the missing information and links (because they didn't understand why it went missing), he ups and deletes both threads entirely. What a baby. He's always been extremely short and irritable with everyone. But this takes the cake. It's even more mystifying because everyone is on his side regarding ScummVM. But as soon as anyone brings it up he threatens to delete all his work. This time he actually did it.

For those not in the know, people kept bringing up the fact that ScummVM willfully chose not to support his patches and made them incompatible with ScummVM because they wrongfully claimed that his patches include scripts that remove copy protection when no such scripts exist (meanwhile, Monkey Island 2 intentionally disables copy protection because ScummVM can't tell whether the version of the game is floppy-based or CD-ROM based. So by their own standards their breaking their own rules that they're imposing on NRS's work). It's either total ignorance on how SCI games work or they're just that pretentious (it wouldn't be the first time *cough*undithering*cough*).

There's also the fiasco about the PQ2 demo. Every copy available seems to have corrupt graphic resources. Nobody seems to have a pure copy. But when someone suggested that the resource from the retail game (which are identical) be used to repair the demo ScummVM said they wouldn't host it because it took files from a retail version of a game. It's just silly pigheadedness. I understand that in the past they've had a leery ominous eye on them from legal parties for supporting copyrighted games and they've had to walk a tightrope carefully about these things but I think that mentality is severely out of date. LucasFilm/Arts lawyers may have breathed down their necks, but I don't see that happening for Sierra IPs. I don't even see it happening for LucasArts games anymore. They just seem to be an island of egos over there. There was also the time that they decided to step in and be the saviors of the AGI/SCI fangame community when Mega-Tokyo went down and start an AGI/SCI fangame subforum....even though the SCI Programming Community already existed and had been around for a while. I'm not going to label everyone over there and paint them with a broad brush, but sometimes I can't stand the place. This is partly, but not the only reason, why I prefer DOSBox over ScummVM for almost everything. Not least of which is that because ScummVM exists some of the original game files are no longer required and are therefore no longer bundled in many GOG game releases because they just use ScummVM (Gobliiins was the first victim of that fallout, and eventually Sierra games followed suit).

Anyway, from his actions, NRS seems to share many traits with ScummVM as it turns out. He's willing to punish the community for out of meaningless pettiness. It's very disappointing.
01010100 01110010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01010100 01001000 00110001

Aroenai
Sierra Obsessed
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:42 pm
Location: Colorado
Gender: Male

split from Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Aroenai » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:34 am

That was me, and this lovely message was waiting for me after work.
Reposted patches --- delete them!
Sent: 2019-2-04 @ 22:19
From: NewRisingSun
To: arablizzard2413

Apparently I did not make myself clear the first time: I did not give you permission to repost the patches that I deleted. Delete these two posts of yours now:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44537&p=732350#p732163
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41384&p=732215#p732215

The "delete" button is on the top right of the post when you are logged it. If you cannot delete it because some other doofuses have already responded, you can still "edit" it to remove the content.

Do that now, immediately, or I need ask the board moderators to have you banned (and have the posts forcibly deleted).

:angry:

User avatar
Tawmis
Grand Poobah's Servant
Posts: 11807
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:19 am
Gender: Not Specified
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Tawmis » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:45 pm

Aroenai wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:34 am
That was me, and this lovely message was waiting for me after work.
That's a charming fellow.

User avatar
Tawmis
Grand Poobah's Servant
Posts: 11807
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:19 am
Gender: Not Specified
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Tawmis » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:48 pm

Tawmis wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:45 pm
Aroenai wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:34 am
That was me, and this lovely message was waiting for me after work.
That's a charming fellow.
Rumor has it, somehow these just got uploaded to LarryLaffer.net ;-)

User avatar
Semi-Happy Partygoer
Sierra Veteran
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:44 pm
Location: Sydney
Gender: Male

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Semi-Happy Partygoer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:21 pm

MusicallyInspired wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am
Yeah, I love NRS's work and he's been an asset to the community. I truly respect his past efforts. but he needs to grow up. He acts like a 2 year old. He first deleted his initial posts and kept his threads, but then when someone else replied to each thread with the missing information and links (because they didn't understand why it went missing), he ups and deletes both threads entirely. What a baby. He's always been extremely short and irritable with everyone. But this takes the cake. It's even more mystifying because everyone is on his side regarding ScummVM. But as soon as anyone brings it up he threatens to delete all his work. This time he actually did it.

For those not in the know, people kept bringing up the fact that ScummVM willfully chose not to support his patches and made them incompatible with ScummVM because they wrongfully claimed that his patches include scripts that remove copy protection when no such scripts exist (meanwhile, Monkey Island 2 intentionally disables copy protection because ScummVM can't tell whether the version of the game is floppy-based or CD-ROM based. So by their own standards their breaking their own rules that they're imposing on NRS's work). It's either total ignorance on how SCI games work or they're just that pretentious (it wouldn't be the first time *cough*undithering*cough*).

There's also the fiasco about the PQ2 demo. Every copy available seems to have corrupt graphic resources. Nobody seems to have a pure copy. But when someone suggested that the resource from the retail game (which are identical) be used to repair the demo ScummVM said they wouldn't host it because it took files from a retail version of a game. It's just silly pigheadedness. I understand that in the past they've had a leery ominous eye on them from legal parties for supporting copyrighted games and they've had to walk a tightrope carefully about these things but I think that mentality is severely out of date. LucasFilm/Arts lawyers may have breathed down their necks, but I don't see that happening for Sierra IPs. I don't even see it happening for LucasArts games anymore. They just seem to be an island of egos over there. There was also the time that they decided to step in and be the saviors of the AGI/SCI fangame community when Mega-Tokyo went down and start an AGI/SCI fangame subforum....even though the SCI Programming Community already existed and had been around for a while. I'm not going to label everyone over there and paint them with a broad brush, but sometimes I can't stand the place. This is partly, but not the only reason, why I prefer DOSBox over ScummVM for almost everything. Not least of which is that because ScummVM exists some of the original game files are no longer required and are therefore no longer bundled in many GOG game releases because they just use ScummVM (Gobliiins was the first victim of that fallout, and eventually Sierra games followed suit).

Anyway, from his actions, NRS seems to share many traits with ScummVM as it turns out. He's willing to punish the community for out of meaningless pettiness. It's very disappointing.
Thank you for posting this. I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling this way about ScummVM. Though I haven't been around nearly as long as most people here, I have caught up on much of the drama there through past forum posts. Suffice it to say, I am incredibly wary of posting anything on that forum out of concern for the response it may get. Some of the devs seem like fine people, but others make me uncomfortable and apprehensive. I've found many of the responses members have received to be unnecessarily rude and condescending, even for questions that don't violate any of their rules. True, some may not have phrased their questions terribly well, and those who blatantly stated they had pirated copies hardly took the smartest course of action, but the holier-than-thou atmosphere is very off-putting. One dev in particular, Dr. McCoy, only seems to post whenever he wants to insult a poor questioner. It just isn't a friendly place.

It also bugs me that the faintest whiff of piracy will result in a locked thread in mere milliseconds, while legitimate questions about where to legally obtain the obscurest titles the platform supports go completely unanswered. Surely those are the types of posts they'd want to be actively encouraging?

Another example of their copy protection hypocrisy: The Legend of Kyrandia's floppy disk CP is also deactivated in ScummVM, even when using a legal, unmodified copy. Their "Kyra" engine must've mashed the floppy and CD code together, or else a cracked patch was used when creating the engine. Regardless of the reason, it's another anomaly that's never been addressed when they're so strict on the issue for other titles.

I stopped using the program more than a year ago, partly because I don't wish to support their attitudes but also because, for me, it doesn't work like it used to. Ever since a particular SDL upgrade, MT-32 emulation has broken. Lots of cracks and hisses that weren't there before. Someone brought this up both on the forum and in the bug tracker, yet no one has acknowledged it (last I checked, anyway). Ultimately, why bother when I can just use MUNT in conjunction with DOSBox?

It's so refreshing to find a community like the SHP where everyone is gracious, respectful, courteous and helpful. I was beginning to lose my passion for old gaming prior to discovering this site due to the hot bed of negativity consuming others. The internet can be such a toxic place; it's reassuring to know that not everywhere is.
"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers" - James Thurber

User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Village Elder
Posts: 2639
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:46 am
Gender: Male
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by MusicallyInspired » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:40 pm

Indeed! Hear, hear.
01010100 01110010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01010100 01001000 00110001

User avatar
Tawmis
Grand Poobah's Servant
Posts: 11807
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:19 am
Gender: Not Specified
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Tawmis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:35 pm

Semi-Happy Partygoer wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:21 pm
It's so refreshing to find a community like the SHP where everyone is gracious, respectful, courteous and helpful. I was beginning to lose my passion for old gaming prior to discovering this site due to the hot bed of negativity consuming others. The internet can be such a toxic place; it's reassuring to know that not everywhere is.
We are glad you're here!

User avatar
notbobsmith
Sierra Veteran
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:02 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Gender: Male

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by notbobsmith » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:17 pm

Had no idea about some of the issues with ScummVM. I know some people here didn't like it, but I didn't quite understand why. I made it my goal to try to get everything to work in a single version of DOSBox. I even got Windows 3.11 working so I could get the better art in KQ6. But there are a few games from GOG where it isn't an option. Riven (not even a DOS game). Shivers. Lighthouse. 7th Guest comes with ScummVM, but I did manage to find a work around to make it work in DOSBox. However, I thought the videos played more cleanly in ScummVM. Phantasmagoria also gave me audio problems in DOSBox. And I have the Hi-Res Adventures from the KQ Collection CD working without the need for AppleWin. So ScummVM is kind of unavoidable for some things. There's also ResidualVM for Myst 3.

User avatar
Semi-Happy Partygoer
Sierra Veteran
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:44 pm
Location: Sydney
Gender: Male

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Semi-Happy Partygoer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:17 am

notbobsmith wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:17 pm
Had no idea about some of the issues with ScummVM. I know some people here didn't like it, but I didn't quite understand why. I made it my goal to try to get everything to work in a single version of DOSBox. I even got Windows 3.11 working so I could get the better art in KQ6. But there are a few games from GOG where it isn't an option. Riven (not even a DOS game). Shivers. Lighthouse. 7th Guest comes with ScummVM, but I did manage to find a work around to make it work in DOSBox. However, I thought the videos played more cleanly in ScummVM. Phantasmagoria also gave me audio problems in DOSBox. And I have the Hi-Res Adventures from the KQ Collection CD working without the need for AppleWin. So ScummVM is kind of unavoidable for some things. There's also ResidualVM for Myst 3.
I completely agree that it has its uses. It's great being able to run games made for other platforms, such as Amiga and FM-Towns ports, plus the Apple Hi-Res adventures.

I respect the amount of effort that has clearly gone into ScummVM and I fully believe its intentions are noble. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and it's a shame their ego clashes and petty policies have tarnished it.

That undithering kerfuffle from some time back was a sight to behold. My jaw literally dropped when I read up on it a few years ago.
"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers" - James Thurber

User avatar
Semi-Happy Partygoer
Sierra Veteran
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:44 pm
Location: Sydney
Gender: Male

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Semi-Happy Partygoer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:22 am

Aroenai wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:34 am
That was me, and this lovely message was waiting for me after work.
Reposted patches --- delete them!
Sent: 2019-2-04 @ 22:19
From: NewRisingSun
To: arablizzard2413

Apparently I did not make myself clear the first time: I did not give you permission to repost the patches that I deleted. Delete these two posts of yours now:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44537&p=732350#p732163
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41384&p=732215#p732215

The "delete" button is on the top right of the post when you are logged it. If you cannot delete it because some other doofuses have already responded, you can still "edit" it to remove the content.

Do that now, immediately, or I need ask the board moderators to have you banned (and have the posts forcibly deleted).

:angry:
Wow...that's unbelievable. It's such a shame that, for all his obvious talents, he chooses to behave in such a manner.

Sorry you had to deal with that. I know it's not fun being on the receiving end of such hostility.
"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers" - James Thurber

User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Village Elder
Posts: 2639
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:46 am
Gender: Male
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by MusicallyInspired » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:49 am

ScummVM is definitely a useful tool. Especially with debugging SCI fangames. I definitely still use it. Just, for Sierra specifically, I prefer DOSBox. There are just too many differences sometimes that take me out of the classic experience I'm used to. All SCI1.1 games, for instance, (like SQ4CD, SQ5, KQ6, PQ1VGA, Freddy Pharkas, LSL6lores, LB2) have a speed issue where the timing is based on CPU cycles and in ScummVM it just goes way too fast. Many cinematics depend on it and some animations simply fly right by. If you set CPU Cycles properly in DOSBox, this isn't an issue at all. As well, I think there STILL isn't a way to get ScummVM to play Adlib sound effects instead of digital ones for SCI0 and SCI10 games. Couple all that with the fact that AGI games don't have the same interface as DOS (instead emulating the Amiga versions with graphical differences and mouse support) and you can say that every single Sierra game is not represented properly in one way or another on ScummVM. So, things like that.

Also, if at some point ScummVM can dump and replace graphics assets (similar to an emulator), making/utilizing high res texture packs would be a fun pastime (see the ESRGAN AI Upscaling thread).
01010100 01110010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01010100 01001000 00110001

User avatar
Collector
Grand Poobah
Posts: 11361
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:57 am
Location: Sierraland
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Collector » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:20 am

I will say that I was not too happy with their holier-than-thou attitude toward the SCI community and their presumption that they should be the heir apparent of all things SCI. The real SCI/AGI community is an old one that goes back to the old Mega Tokyo boards and even earlier. We have even had a return of some notable people like Lance Ewing, Peter Kelly, and HWM.

The SVM people tried to get us to pull the old FreeSCI documentation from the SCI Wiki because they were the "rightful heirs to the old FreeSCI project", even though it was added to the Wiki directly from the old project's site around the same time as they did their copy and it had this copyright notice:
Copyright (C) 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 by the authors - Lars Skovlund, Christoph Reichenbach, Ravi Iyengar, Rickard Lind, Vladimir Gneushev, Petr Vyhnak, Dark Minister and Francois Boyer

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this documentation to deal in the Documentation without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Documentation, and to permit persons to whom the Documentation is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Documentation.


THE DOCUMENTATION IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE DOCUMENTATION OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE DOCUMENTATION.


The Sierra Creative Interpreter was originally developed by Sierra On-Line, Inc. "Sierra On-Line Inc. (TM)" is a registered trademark of Sierra On-Line, Inc. Quest for Glory: So You Want To Be A Hero, Quest For Glory 2: Trial By Fire and Space Quest 3: The Pirates of Pestulon are trademarks of Sierra On-Line, Inc.
That said, it is a tool that I appreciate and am grateful for their efforts, but they do need to grow up with respect to their public interactions. This, of course applies to varying degrees to the different devs. Some are quite reasonable or even cordial while others act as if they are spoiled, entitled teens.
01000010 01111001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01101101 01100101 00100001

Image

User avatar
MusicallyInspired
Village Elder
Posts: 2639
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:46 am
Gender: Male
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by MusicallyInspired » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:42 am

Yeah, a few of the ScummVM devs were actually quick to side with us on the debate, or at least see both sides. Clone2727 especially seemed supportive. Actually, I suspect there was some internal tension on the team between m_kiewitz, clone2727 and others before that discussion started because he was the one that dropped that note about undithering in the thread about KQ6 Windows cursors (which some devs were quick to dismiss as inferior and didn't want to support. Now they do). I suspect he was likely outnumbered on the team or at least was trying to show other devs that players wouldn't just roll over and accept this "enhancement." ScummVM has largely always had this "meh" attitude vibe toward Sierra related stuff. Like we should appreciate them for giving any attention to Sierra at all. I don't know. That's just how it felt.

To this day I can't get over how blatantly deceptive and obtuse m_kiewitz was being by saying that they "weren't creating colours, they're already there" and "we're not adding anything we're just not adding the dithering step." Anyone who knows how SCI works knows that the dithered colours are in fact their own palette values but that doesn't mean that the undithered colours existed before. All the devs had to work with was dithered EGA and nothing else. He was making it sound like the artists had more than 16 colours to work with and the process of importing into the game engine decreased the available colours and added dithering to compensate. So slimy an argument. And then using feedback from Ken Williams (who would more than anything want the work of Sierra to be remembered in any way possible and would say anything nice to a fan trying to preserve that work) to prove that nonsense was true.

Ugh, just reading that thread again gets me frustrated lol. I'd better stop.

As far as the SCI wiki was concerned, they weren't all obtuse about it. One of the devs who seemed sane and diplomatic just raised the point that much of the information was out of date and a lot of it had been corrected or expanded. I do understand that perspective.
01010100 01110010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01010100 01001000 00110001

User avatar
Collector
Grand Poobah
Posts: 11361
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:57 am
Location: Sierraland
Contact:

Re: Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Collector » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:20 am

I agree, but some were having a hissy fit over it. One in particular that I will not name.

The more mature SVM devs need to take charge and stop the negative aspects of their public interactions. Some new posters get upset with VOGONS over "abandonware" but this is usually just a referral to the abandonware sites for help, not the public shaming that SVM does.
01000010 01111001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01101101 01100101 00100001

Image

User avatar
Semi-Happy Partygoer
Sierra Veteran
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:44 pm
Location: Sydney
Gender: Male

Split from Non-Sierra Installers and Patches

Post by Semi-Happy Partygoer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:08 pm

Collector wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:20 am
The more mature SVM devs need to take charge and stop the negative aspects of their public interactions. Some new posters get upset with VOGONS over "abandonware" but this is usually just a referral to the abandonware sites for help, not the public shaming that SVM does.
The public shaming aspect is what puts me off the most. There are alternative ways to handle situations without resorting to humiliation. Many people who say the "wrong" thing may have no idea they're doing anything wrong in the first place; they might be broaching the subject in complete innocence and don't deserve to be publicly flogged for it. I sometimes get the feeling that certain SVM devs view anyone without their exact level of knowledge as beneath them, and unworthy of their time, as if people who use their program are merely an inconvenience. Fortunately, there are sane voices over there to counter that, and some of the more hostile devs don't seem to post much anymore. Maybe they'll turn over a new leaf.
"It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers" - James Thurber

Post Reply