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Rath Darkblade
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Star Wars / Star Trek Discussion (SciFi In General)

Post by Rath Darkblade » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am

MusicallyInspired wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:43 am
Disney owns everything LucasArts did since they bought LucasFilm in 2012 or whenever it was.
And what have they done with the Monkey Island IP? Nothing! :x Instead, Disney went about maxing their bottom line by developing every Star Wars-related game they could. I'm not a big fan of SW, mind, but I think Lucas did a better job with it than Disney will... :(

Disney's missing out by sitting on the Monkey Island IP. With public excitement over pirate-related stuff (see all the hoo-ha over the Pirates of the Caribbean movies), Disney could cash in - if they're smart enough to figure out that Monkey Island is a PARODY and not a "straight" story! :x

(Sorry to shout like that, but perhaps that way Disney will get it. :P No, I'm not a fan of Disney. Can you tell?)
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:43 am
I'm glad Telltale is toast, personally.
Really? :shock: As I said, I only played Tales, and enjoyed it. Were Telltale that bad....? :|

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Tawmis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:38 am

Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
And what have they done with the Monkey Island IP? Nothing! :x Instead, Disney went about maxing their bottom line by developing every Star Wars-related game they could.
... bottom-line? Star Wars? Bottom line? I...
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
I'm not a big fan of SW, mind,
... even if you're not a fan of Star Wars, you can't possibly think Star Wars is bottom line, considering the movie success (before The Last Jedi and Solo) and the absolutely phenomenal merchandising success...
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
but I think Lucas did a better job with it than Disney will... :(
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Granted, for me - A New Hope, Empire and Return were all amazing. Phantom Menace was ... beyond a train wreck. The Clone Wars, was barely tolerable. And Revenge of the Jedi was boring. So Lucas has a 50% success ratio with me. Thankfully my love of ANH, ESB and ROTJ supercede my hatred for PM, TCW and ROTS.

I absolutely loved The Force Awakens (not as much as ANH, ESB, and ROTJ - but I admit, because of the impact of the original trilogy, they're always going to be sacred). I, unlike most people, enjoyed The Last Jedi (with only a few scenes that I really disliked). And Solo was a phenomenal, great, movie that a bunch of angry fan boys protested and tanked the sales, apparently. The best of the Disney made Star Wars movies. Rogue One was good for that tie in prior to ANH. Cool, but not really needed either.
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
Disney's missing out by sitting on the Monkey Island IP. With public excitement over pirate-related stuff (see all the hoo-ha over the Pirates of the Caribbean movies), Disney could cash in - if they're smart enough to figure out that Monkey Island is a PARODY and not a "straight" story! :x
(Sorry to shout like that, but perhaps that way Disney will get it. :P No, I'm not a fan of Disney. Can you tell?)
Not a fan of Disney? Despite the massive assortment of great cartoons dating back to the 70s, 80s and 90s - and then the assortment of other movies they did - and well, I know you're apparently not a fan of Star Wars, but they also do the MCU (Marvel Cinematic Universe) - so all the Avengers related movies (which, I can also guess you're not a fan of).
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:43 am
I'm glad Telltale is toast, personally.
Really? :shock: As I said, I only played Tales, and enjoyed it. Were Telltale that bad....? :|
Have fun:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ ... e-industry
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/20/1713 ... e-industry
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/4/1793 ... lking-dead
https://kotaku.com/telltale-employees-l ... 1829272139
https://www.cnet.com/news/former-tellta ... s-layoffs/
https://gamerant.com/telltale-games-dev-overtime/

Google for more now that you know.

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Rath Darkblade » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:27 am

Tawmis wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:38 am
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
And what have they done with the Monkey Island IP? Nothing! :x Instead, Disney went about maxing their bottom line by developing every Star Wars-related game they could.
... bottom-line? Star Wars? Bottom line? I...
Um - "bottom line" is an informal concept that means "the final total of an account or balance sheet" or "the fundamental and most important factor."

No, I don't think that Star Wars is bad. :)

I agree that the original SW films - ANH, Empire and Return of the Jedi were fantastic. And yes, I heard bad things about Phantom Menace, Clone Wars and Revenge of the Jedi (including here!), so I cautiously checked out some scenes on YouTube and decided not to bother.

As for The Force Awakens, I haven't made up my mind yet.
Tawmis wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:38 am
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
Disney's missing out by sitting on the Monkey Island IP. With public excitement over pirate-related stuff (see all the hoo-ha over the Pirates of the Caribbean movies), Disney could cash in - if they're smart enough to figure out that Monkey Island is a PARODY and not a "straight" story! :x
(Sorry to shout like that, but perhaps that way Disney will get it. :P No, I'm not a fan of Disney. Can you tell?)
Not a fan of Disney? Despite the massive assortment of great cartoons dating back to the 70s, 80s and 90s - and then the assortment of other movies they did - and well, I know you're apparently not a fan of Star Wars, but they also do the MCU (Marvel Cinematic Universe) - so all the Avengers related movies (which, I can also guess you're not a fan of).
I like the classic Disney (the cartoons made in the 30s and 40s). The ones in the 70s were okay. I haven't bothered with the later ones. My Disney film experience has been hit-and-miss - I liked Aladdin, Lion King, and Beauty and the Beast, but hated Little Mermaid (not sure why). Didn't care for Mulan. I particularly liked the Robin Hood film made in the 70s. But then Disney's relentless exploitation of its own IP - especially the endless remakes of Lion King - rubbed me the wrong way.

Just looking at what Disney has in development is already enough to rub me the wrong way: remake after remake after remake. Remakes of Mulan, Lion King, Dumbo (the magic of CGI! :P), Lady and the Tramp, Captain Nemo, Father of the Bride, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, James and the Giant Peach, Lilo & Stitch (already???), Robin Hood (called "Nottingham & Hood"), Oliver Twist, Peter Pan, Pinocchio, The Jungle Book (again), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (what?), The Sword in the Stone, Three Men and a Baby ... sigh. :( Find an original idea and leave the good movies alone, fergawd'ssake! :(
Tawmis wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:38 am
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:43 am
I'm glad Telltale is toast, personally.
Really? :shock: As I said, I only played Tales, and enjoyed it. Were Telltale that bad....? :|
Have fun:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ ... e-industry
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/20/1713 ... e-industry
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/4/1793 ... lking-dead
https://kotaku.com/telltale-employees-l ... 1829272139
https://www.cnet.com/news/former-tellta ... s-layoffs/
https://gamerant.com/telltale-games-dev-overtime/

Google for more now that you know.
:shock: Honestly, I had no idea. That sucks and blows. :( I can see someone launched a class action suit against Telltale ... wow. It's so sad to see a company collapse like that. :(

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Tawmis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:52 am

Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:27 am
Um - "bottom line" is an informal concept that means "the final total of an account or balance sheet" or "the fundamental and most important factor."
Oh, I misunderstood. I totally thought you were implying the "bottom of the barrel" type thing; like their least valuable/useless IP. :lol:
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:27 am
I like the classic Disney (the cartoons made in the 30s and 40s). The ones in the 70s were okay. I haven't bothered with the later ones. My Disney film experience has been hit-and-miss - I liked Aladdin, Lion King, and Beauty and the Beast, but hated Little Mermaid (not sure why). Didn't care for Mulan. I particularly liked the Robin Hood film made in the 70s. But then Disney's relentless exploitation of its own IP - especially the endless remakes of Lion King - rubbed me the wrong way.
Hold up - what about Aristocats, 101 Dalmations and the like? :D (Two of my favorites!)
They also did some lesser known (known movie, but not many know it's Disney) such as Something Wicked This Way Comes (another favorite of mine).
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:27 am
:shock: Honestly, I had no idea. That sucks and blows. :( I can see someone launched a class action suit against Telltale ... wow. It's so sad to see a company collapse like that. :(
Yeah, once they cut the employees, the vile truth exploded.
To be fair, they (employees) should have spoke up before it all went down the tubes.

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by MusicallyInspired » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 am

Tawmis wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:38 am
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Granted, for me - A New Hope, Empire and Return were all amazing. Phantom Menace was ... beyond a train wreck. The Clone Wars, was barely tolerable. And Revenge of the Jedi was boring. So Lucas has a 50% success ratio with me. Thankfully my love of ANH, ESB and ROTJ supercede my hatred for PM, TCW and ROTS.
Image

You mean Attack of the Clones. The Clone Wars was a 6-season (now getting the previously incomplete 7th season) CGI-animated TV show that was amazing and on par with Batman: The Animated Series in terms of storytelling and appealing to children and adults alike. Please don't confuse them. TCW is the only piece of prequel-era Star Wars created by LucasFilm that was actually really good, redeeming Anakin's atrocious character presentation from the movies. And it was because of Dave Filoni who, in my opinion, should be running Star Wars. Star Wars Rebels wasn't too bad either. Especially when they brought in and canonized Grand Admiral Thrawn. Didn't reach TCW levels of greatness, though. But it did tie up some loose ends and had some incredible moments
I, unlike most people, enjoyed The Last Jedi (with only a few scenes that I really disliked). And Solo was a phenomenal, great, movie that a bunch of angry fan boys protested and tanked the sales, apparently. The best of the Disney made Star Wars movies. Rogue One was good for that tie in prior to ANH. Cool, but not really needed either.
However you think of The Last Jedi or its detractors/fans, nobody can deny that it irreparably fractured the Star Wars community. It probably will never fully recover from it. The majority were far more forgiving of The Force Awakens. Even its detractors had hope for the next episodes. The Last Jedi sealed Star Wars' fate, though. Unless they retcon everything, which they're not gonna do. Solo was alright. Not mind-blowing. I actually preferred Rogue One, which I think is the best Disney Star Wars. But I acknowledge it wasn't amazing either. I just really don't want Solo to exist. We didn't need the origins of Han Solo (and we definitely didn't need that sorry excuse of an explanation for his last name...I'm still trying to roll my eyes back to their proper position in my head to this day).
Not a fan of Disney? Despite the massive assortment of great cartoons dating back to the 70s, 80s and 90s - and then the assortment of other movies they did - and well, I know you're apparently not a fan of Star Wars, but they also do the MCU (Marvel Cinematic Universe) - so all the Avengers related movies (which, I can also guess you're not a fan of).
Yeah, I really like Disney. They've been rather boring and predictable lately, but back in the day they were awesome. Disney Afternoon anyone? Those cartoons were the best. And the Little Mermaid-Hercules era was my favourite as far as animated movies are concerned. 70s ones were good too, mostly. I even quite liked The Princess and the Frog (which I can't believe is 10 years old now).
Rath Darkblade wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:43 am
I'm glad Telltale is toast, personally.
Really? :shock: As I said, I only played Tales, and enjoyed it. Were Telltale that bad....? :|
Have fun:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ ... e-industry
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/20/1713 ... e-industry
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/4/1793 ... lking-dead
https://kotaku.com/telltale-employees-l ... 1829272139
https://www.cnet.com/news/former-tellta ... s-layoffs/
https://gamerant.com/telltale-games-dev-overtime/

Google for more now that you know.
Apart from their management problems over the years (which there was evidence of, it just wasn't widespread and taken as seriously until the shutdown. I definitely heard things before that happened), my main issue is how they hijacked the classic P&C adventure game fan community as a launchpad to propel themselves into an entirely different style of game. I've never forgiven them for that (I'm being melodramatic. I know these are just games and don't matter in the longrun). Tales of Monkey Island was their best effort. I was a fan since Sam & Max Season One (before it was called Save The World) and eagerly anticipated its release. I love Steve Purcell's Sam & Max characters and the LucasArts game was awesome. Hated LucasArts for cancelling Freelance Police, its sequel (that's where the infamous "marketplace realities" quote by the LucasArts president came in). It was fairly simplistic and easy but I chalked that up to experimenting with the episodic model and the need to make things a little smaller. I expected them to improve the formula and slowly bring the new audience they made from people who weren't necessarily P&C fans of old into a new era of challenging puzzles and brain teasers. But they went the opposite direction. Some people thought Beyond Time And Space (Season Two) was better, but personally I didn't find it much different. Maybe more polished.

Strong Bad's Cool Game For Attractive People excited me, but I wasn't expecting anything groundbreaking. And sure enough it wasn't, with the nature of Strong Bad/Homestar being more simplistic anyway. I still haven't finished Wallace and Gromit but many didn't appreciate that the collector's DVD they were selling still required online authentication (the collector DVDs sold in their online store originally all just required the disc to be in the drive). Also, no original voice actors returned which was a shame. Then Tales of Monkey Island was announced and we all lost our collective minds in excitement. And it was indeed their best effort, as I said. After that it all went downhill VERY fast. Sam & Max 3 abandoned the point & click approach, Back to the Future The Game was a mind-numbingly easy waste of time (though the story was decent), but Jurassic Park The Game was when they showed their hand at what they wanted to do and where they wanted to go. I can't blame them for attempting to make their games easier to fit into their episode business model, but I can blame them for their episodic business model. In Jurassic Park they omitted walking altogether and ADVERTISED it as a game FEATURE because "nobody wants to keep walking back and forth". Also, I think it featured the single most disappointing storyline Telltale has every written (which is saying a lot because, their game design shortcomings aside, they had really good writers and storytellers). By this time Dave Grossman and anyone else who used to work at LucasArts were probably gone, as was the last remaining interest I had i the company.

Then The Walking Dead happened and exploded. I didn't see the appeal, personally. Like, at all. Sure, you could walk around again, but puzzles? Non-existent as far as I'm concerned. Now it was riddled with QTE and timed dialogue choices (which are completely meaningless by the end of the season). After the first season everything they made turned into "Dialogue Tree: The Game". It felt like an interactive DVD menu game. No challenge, everything exposition, no choices other than what you say. That's just not "game" enough for me.

They hijacked the adventure game community with promises of returning the genre to some measure of popularity again and then turned around and compromised everything by chasing after a bigger demographic. What's worse, peoples till call their games "adventure" and are still heralded as the saviors of the genre. I would have rather it remained dead. If you ask me, developers like Wadjet Eye, Daedelic Entertainment, Infamous Quests, Himalaya Studios, and Crystal Shard are the real heroes in that regard. I'm just glad they didn't get their grubby mitts on King's Quest which they initially acquired a license for (and was first announced along with The Wolf Among Us, Tales From the Borderlands, and Game of Thrones) but never did anything with (hopefully, due to fan backlash). Telltale's death was a long time coming as far as I'm concerned. Don't get me wrong, I felt sorry for the actual developers who lost their jobs. They were a talented bunch to be sure. but their gameplay sucked.


Don't diss The Clone Wars.
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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Tawmis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:02 pm

MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 am
You mean Attack of the Clones.
:lol: Yes, sorry.
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 am
However you think of The Last Jedi or its detractors/fans, nobody can deny that it irreparably fractured the Star Wars community. It probably will never fully recover from it. The majority were far more forgiving of The Force Awakens.
I blame social media. Because Phantom Menace was infinitely worse, and I think way more damaging than The Last Jedi. But back then, most of the world was probably still on MySpace. These days with more people having moved to Facebook and Twitter, it's easier to build an angry (self-righteous) mob. :lol:
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 am
I just really don't want Solo to exist. We didn't need the origins of Han Solo (and we definitely didn't need that sorry excuse of an explanation for his last name...I'm still trying to roll my eyes back to their proper position in my head to this day).
Oh, his last name thing was stupid. But, while we didn't "need" an origin story for Solo, I thought it was great to see him and Chewie meeting and the interaction between him and Lando over the Falcon.
I thought all of those were really well done.

Where as Rogue One, was there really a need to show how the plans of the Death Star got to the Rebellion? Not really either. But it had some cool moments.
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 am
Yeah, I really like Disney. They've been rather boring and predictable lately, but back in the day they were awesome. Disney Afternoon anyone? Those cartoons were the best. And the Little Mermaid-Hercules era was my favourite as far as animated movies are concerned. 70s ones were good too, mostly. I even quite liked The Princess and the Frog (which I can't believe is 10 years old now).
Those were all great.
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:18 am
Don't diss The Clone Wars.
Hah! Why was this all the way at the bottom? :lol:

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by MusicallyInspired » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm

Ehh...no, I don't agree that Phantom Menace was worse at all. The Last Jedi was abysmally bad right down to the story itself. There's not a single thing The Last Jedi did well. It was a shoddy piece of cinematic garbage in every single way. The plot, the character development, the characters, the portrayals, the revelations, the ethical/moral subtext, everything. Besides effects. But this is LucasFilm we're talking about here. The effects are always going to be stellar. And Mark Hamil's acting. He's always stellar too, despite the raping his character received (hats off to you, Mark. You were a trooper to put yourself through that). But I won't get dragged back into that discussion again lol! :P

Phantom Menace had a great base story. It was just not told or presented very well. Regardless, my 15-year-old self quite enjoyed it when it first came out. I still to this day think it has the best edge-of-your-seat lightsaber duel in the entire saga. Not the most emotional or impactful (that honour belongs to ROTJ), but all things considered I do think TPM's duel is the best. In stark contrast to AOTC and ROTS's duels which were snooze-fests and totally boring and unengaging in every way. I still can't put my finger on why TPM's is so much better than EP2 or EP3's...it's gotta be the editing or something. But I do consider it far better.

Phantom Menace is just such a sprawling adventure that takes you from one big event to the next like a big journey. I didn't find him particularly funny, but I also didn't hate Jar Jar Binks either. I blame the shortcomings on George's directing and nothing more.
Where as Rogue One, was there really a need to show how the plans of the Death Star got to the Rebellion? Not really either. But it had some cool moments.
Well, we kind of already did with Dark Forces (which was also acknowledged in a Kyle Katarn book trilogy in the EU, so it's not "just a video game"). It wasn't a new concept. Unlike telling Han's origins which was never done before (and, I think, intentionally avoided). I remember watching the prequels hoping that George didn't bring Han into it or his family or a mention or soemthing. I was elated to discover that he didn't. Even he, who loves retconning everything and throwing stuff in everywhere to explain everything, intentionally left Solo out of it.
Hah! Why was this all the way at the bottom? :lol:
Just making sure everyone reads it in case they skimmed my wall of text. :lol:
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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Tawmis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:50 pm

MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
Ehh...no, I don't agree that Phantom Menace was worse at all. The Last Jedi was abysmally bad right down to the story itself. There's not a single thing The Last Jedi did well. It was a shoddy piece of cinematic garbage in every single way.
I think you mean the Phantom Menace, not the Last Jedi? I think you're confusing the two like I did Attack of the Clones and Clone Wars.

lolpb.png

:lol: Kidding aside, I completely respect your opinion, though I disagree.
So the Last Jedi did have a few scenes that I was like, "Meh." But nothing stood out anymore than any of the other Star Wars movies (none of them were flawless).
While the Phantom Menace, I think made some crucial mistakes. It introduced Darth Maul, and killed him in - what? - the first 30 minutes? The potential of a great villain, cut down (literally) in moments.
Then Lucas felt the need to explain The Force (rather than being this mystic force) and introduced Metacholorians (or however you spell it).
I felt the acting - all across the board, except for Liam and Ewan - was completely flat. Don't get me started on Jake Lloyd (Anakin). Even Natalie Portman, easy on the eyes, sure, but the acting wasn't there. Certainly no chemistry between her and Anakin (which was already kind of awkward in that movie). The Chinese Federation guys at the beginning? Horrible. Do I even need to get started on the introduction of JarJar? Or the "Roger Roger" droids?

I honestly think that Lucas was trying to go the route of Star Trek (which I am sure makes you happy!) and try to explain everything, make a more complicated storyline (trade federation wars), and in the end, forgot his "audience."
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
And Mark Hamil's acting. He's always stellar too, despite the raping his character received (hats off to you, Mark. You were a trooper to put yourself through that). But I won't get dragged back into that discussion again lol! :P
I did find it odd (I am not sure that this is the discussion you're talking about? I don't think you and I had it?), that Mark - after the movie came out and got a bad reaction - jumped on the bandwagon to say, "Yeah, Luke would have never done this and that." I feel like, if you didn't like the script - why did you agree to do it? I sincerely doubt he's in need of money, based off the income he has rolling in from the previous Star Wars movies, his numerous voice acting gigs and their royalties (such as voicing the Joker).
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
Phantom Menace had a great base story. It was just not told or presented very well. Regardless, my 15-year-old self quite enjoyed it when it first came out. I still to this day think it has the best edge-of-your-seat lightsaber duel in the entire saga. Not the most emotional or impactful (that honour belongs to ROTJ), but all things considered I do think TPM's duel is the best.
Interesting. I am not doing this to yank your chain, I swear, but I think The Last Jedi had the best lightsabre scene - with Rey and Kylo in Snoke's chamber room.
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
I didn't find him particularly funny, but I also didn't hate Jar Jar Binks either.
See, I think JarJar could have worked (for me) if he was actually, you know, successful at what he was supposed to be - and that is "funny." He was supposed to be comedic relief but he was so over the top, it was like they inserted Bugs Bunny in a Star Wars movie, and it didn't (to me) feel like it worked.

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by DeadPoolX » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:03 pm

MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
Ehh...no, I don't agree that Phantom Menace was worse at all.
I do. The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were terrible. The acting was bad, the situations were laughable, and the CGI was complete shit. I know you have problems with TLJ, but seriously... there was a damn 1950s diner in the second prequel movie! That's worse than some stupid casino planet by a mile.

Revenge of the Sith was tolerable, but that's about the best I can say for it.
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
The Last Jedi was abysmally bad right down to the story itself. There's not a single thing The Last Jedi did well. It was a shoddy piece of cinematic garbage in every single way.
To quote Luke in that very same movie: "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
The plot, the character development, the characters, the portrayals, the revelations, the ethical/moral subtext, everything.
Every character in TLJ was played to their strengths and weaknesses, which made PERFECT sense for each of their personalities.

I loved how Luke tricked Kylo Ren. That was awesome and far more impressive — and true to his character — than blowing everything up like a giant Force-powered tornado. Managing to do what he did across space like that was amazing and it's not surprising it killed him. Hell, they even mention that doing something like that could kill you in the VERY SAME movie.

I really don't get why the vocal minority (and it is a minority that consists of self-entitled shitweasels who feel they own Star Wars) hate it so much. If they could explain it without foaming at the mouth with rage I'd be more inclined to listen, but right now all the complaints seem to consist of is racist, sexist, and downright bizarre commentary. These are the same people who decided to harass the actress who plays Rose and commonly refer to her as "that fat Asian bitch" and proclaim "SJWs are ruining Star Wars" and that "there's a vegan agenda within the movie" because Chewbacca didn't eat a Porg right in front of his sad friends.

I'm not sure if these people are simply insane, paranoid, or just looking for something to hate. Maybe all three.
Tawmis wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:50 pm
I did find it odd (I am not sure that this is the discussion you're talking about? I don't think you and I had it?), that Mark - after the movie came out and got a bad reaction - jumped on the bandwagon to say, "Yeah, Luke would have never done this and that." I feel like, if you didn't like the script - why did you agree to do it? I sincerely doubt he's in need of money, based off the income he has rolling in from the previous Star Wars movies, his numerous voice acting gigs and their royalties (such as voicing the Joker).
Actually, the interviews that show Mark Hamill saying he's against how Luke was written are carefully edited to make it look like Hamill hated it. In fact, the parts of the interviews that were cut show Hamill explaining that after he talked it over with the director and he understood where he was going with this, he didn't have a problem at all with it. After the movie came out, Hamill even defended TLJ.

So yeah... all the BS about Hamill hating the way Luke was written is just that, complete and utter BS.
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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by MusicallyInspired » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:21 am

I'm not going to do the quote/response thing tonight. And I'm tired of having this debate. I never wanted to get into it in the first place. Suffice it to say I loathe TLJ (and that's after believing I loved it for two months and trying to defend it). I'm not foaming at the mouth in rage either. But I will say that Mark Hamill to this day still comments on how he can't fathom why Rian Johnson wrote Luke the way he did. You can go all conspiracy theory about how videos are "carefully edited" and whatnot and it was all the same women-hating trolls that "caused Kelly Marie Tran to abandon social media" (which has never been proven one way or the other), but I'm not one of them. I don't believe those people have any control over anything whatsoever nor do I believe they accomplished anything to change things in their favour at all.

What Mark Hamill said was that he fundamentally disagreed with everything Rian Johnson did to Luke's character. He said that to Rian Johnson directly. And he consistently said in interviews since the movie that he was not happy with the direction his character took and that his hopes and dreams for the character were not fulfilled. He stayed on and did the movies because, frankly, he doesn't have the clout of Harrison Ford who got his wish to be killed off. Which meant he never got to have a scene with him and he even said "I'll probably never get a chance to work with Harrison again." He also said that he didn't want to not come back because then he'd be the only one not doing so and didn't want to ruin it for the fans. It wasn't about how much money he was or wasn't making. But he definitely didn't have the input on his character that Harrison Ford had. And since Mark is such a nice and awesome guy, he chose to be diplomatic about everything and concede that "it's not my story anymore." Make no mistake, he was not happy with how things turned out. But he respects Rian (I don't) and the fans of his movie enough to understand that not everybody shares his opinion. That's all. I used the same counter-arguments when I was still defending TLJ that Mark said at first that he didn't like it but then "came to understand what he was trying to do" but the hard quotes don't lie and his continuing attitude of disdain for the direction his character took was so much that I started to believe that the videos I was watching were "edited" to show otherwise. But again, one need only read his thoughts on the matter and watch his (full and unedited) interviews.

There's also the matter that Disney definitely was telling him to shut up because they were afraid he was going to ruin the PR.

I'm not saying he hated the movie, I'm saying he knew there was no way Luke Skywalker would have ended up in that scenario or mindset he was in. That's just a fact. He said so. He doesn't agree that it makes any kind of logical sense. I'm saying that in spite of this he supports the movie because he considers Rian a friend (I guess) and because he respects all Star Wars fans who liked the change, like you guys, because it's "not his story anymore, it's for a new generation now." But he definitely didn't agree with it and still doesn't. I wholeheartedly agree with him because Luke was my favourite character and was what I was looking forward to the most in TLJ. I don't really care about any of the other characters at all. Rey has no arc. I can't get behind her as the hero. I just couldn't care less about her. I came back for Luke. And now he's gone.

Ok, I'm not talking about this anymore lol. I respect your guys' opinions, but I do not share them. I'm not a cinema expert nor do I fully understand what makes a story good or bad objectively in a way that I can put into words (at least words that actually make sense!). I just know what I feel. And when I search my feelings....I know it to be true: The Last Jedi sucks. I felt like I screamed "NO!" just like Luke in ESB when I faced it because I didn't want it to be true. *shrug* Sorry.

Also, I agree that Attack of the Clones is horrid. No argument there. Before The Last Jedi, it was at the bottom of my list waaaay below the others. I still had a fun experience with TPM, and even though I can see its flaws, I can still have a good time watching it. I simply cannot with TLJ. But have fun enjoying the movie! I don't want to discourage your experience with it if it works for you.
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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by DeadPoolX » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:16 am

For the record, I wasn't including you in the harassment shitweasel category.

I don't know if the harassment chased Kelly Marie Tran off Twitter or not, but people are in fact attacking HER — not her character — on Facebook and YouTube. If they want to hate Rose, that's fine; I wasn't thrilled with her either, but there's no excuse for attacking the actor because they disliked the character she played in a movie.

I've seen the unedited videos of Hamill's interviews and at first, he's not on board with Luke's portrayal, but he very definitively changed his mind and says so in the interviews themselves. I'd like to believe he actually means it, because the alternative is he lacks integrity, and I'd prefer the former over the latter.

Regardless... this entire thread has gone WAY off track. How did we even get from "how Sierra games failed" to "Star Wars" anyway?
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Star Wars Discussion (was Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded))

Post by Rath Darkblade » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:20 am

DeadPoolX wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:16 am
...this entire thread has gone WAY off track. How did we even get from "how Sierra games failed" to "Star Wars" anyway?
TDS (Thread Distraction Syndrome). ;) Yes, let's get back on topic!

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by MusicallyInspired » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:48 am

DeadPoolX wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:16 am
I don't know if the harassment chased Kelly Marie Tran off Twitter or not, but people are in fact attacking HER — not her character — on Facebook and YouTube. If they want to hate Rose, that's fine; I wasn't thrilled with her either, but there's no excuse for attacking the actor because they disliked the character she played in a movie.
Agreed.
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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Rath Darkblade » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:14 am

True. Being dissatisfied with a character is one thing, but attacking the actor is unacceptable. :x

Notwithstanding the fact that the character isn't even the actor's "fault" - after all, the actor simply follows the script and the director's, er, directions - there is the human factor as well.

Why should I attack an actor (or actress) for playing a character? I've got more than enough to do with my life ... ;)

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Re: Why SIERRA GAMES Failed (And How They Could Have Succeeded)

Post by Tawmis » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:29 pm

DeadPoolX wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:03 pm
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 pm
Ehh...no, I don't agree that Phantom Menace was worse at all.
I do. The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were terrible. The acting was bad, the situations were laughable, and the CGI was complete shit.
You always disagree with me, DPX! I am starting to think... wait... did you just agree with me? :lol:
(Naturally, I am kidding, we actually agree on quite a bit)
DeadPoolX wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:03 pm
I really don't get why the vocal minority (and it is a minority that consists of self-entitled shitweasels who feel they own Star Wars) hate it so much. If they could explain it without foaming at the mouth with rage I'd be more inclined to listen, but right now all the complaints seem to consist of is racist, sexist, and downright bizarre commentary. These are the same people who decided to harass the actress who plays Rose and commonly refer to her as "that fat Asian bitch" and proclaim "SJWs are ruining Star Wars" and that "there's a vegan agenda within the movie" because Chewbacca didn't eat a Porg right in front of his sad friends.
I'm not sure if these people are simply insane, paranoid, or just looking for something to hate. Maybe all three.
I vote for all three. :lol:

It is interesting that those (and this doesn't include MI, who is actually a reasonable person!) were so against The Last Jedi, did it so venomously, that it was difficult to see their point - because, as you said, they couldn't explain it without being utterly offensive.

I do not mask my hatred of the prequels (obviously), but never did I even remotely think of attacking any of the actors, writers, directors, etc., that were involved in the movies. I may have voiced it among friends and forums, about my dislike - but I pretty much always explained it as I did above - citing why I disliked (hated) it. The idea of attacking someone on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram... is not sane to me.
DeadPoolX wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:03 pm
Actually, the interviews that show Mark Hamill saying he's against how Luke was written are carefully edited to make it look like Hamill hated it. In fact, the parts of the interviews that were cut show Hamill explaining that after he talked it over with the director and he understood where he was going with this, he didn't have a problem at all with it. After the movie came out, Hamill even defended TLJ.
So yeah... all the BS about Hamill hating the way Luke was written is just that, complete and utter BS.
I do think he took to Twitter, to actually say, he did not like how Luke was written and feels that Luke would have handled things differently. But he said he still respected the writers and directors, and such.
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:21 am
I'm not going to do the quote/response thing tonight. And I'm tired of having this debate. I never wanted to get into it in the first place.
Well, that's what I have always liked about SHP - our discussions always remain civil. :)
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:21 am
He also said that he didn't want to not come back because then he'd be the only one not doing so and didn't want to ruin it for the fans.
I get that everyone is different - but to me, if you read the script and didn't like it - and you feel it goes against everything the character would do - why would you do it? If you fear of not coming back would ruin it for the fans, but then the part you played was going to ruin it for the fans (anyway) - it just seems like the easier choice is not to do it?
MusicallyInspired wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:21 am
It wasn't about how much money he was or wasn't making. But he definitely didn't have the input on his character that Harrison Ford had.
Harrison Ford is definitely the bigger/popular actor between the two, but in the Star Wars Universe, I don't think anyone would say Solo's role was more important that Luke's. It feels like Mark could have had a voice (and some clout) about how Luke might be portrayed.

But then, maybe not.

MusicallyInspired wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:21 am
I'm not a cinema expert nor do I fully understand what makes a story good or bad objectively in a way that I can put into words (at least words that actually make sense!). I just know what I feel. And when I search my feelings....I know it to be true: The Last Jedi sucks. I felt like I screamed "NO!" just like Luke in ESB when I faced it because I didn't want it to be true. *shrug* Sorry.
Two things.
1. No one is a Cinema Expert. It's all matter of opinion. What might work for you, doesn't for me, and vice versa. All opinions. No right or wrong. :)
2. That was pretty funny (searching your feelings and knowing it to be true!) :D
DeadPoolX wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:16 am
Regardless... this entire thread has gone WAY off track. How did we even get from "how Sierra games failed" to "Star Wars" anyway?
I fixed it. ;)

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